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Biden vs Trump 2024 – Who won the first debate?

Biden vs Trump 2024 – Who won the first debate?

This was the first debate between Biden and Trump, June 27, 2024, much anticipated for various reasons. My technique, as has been in the past, is not to argue the issues, but rather to predict the influence of the debate on the polls and ultimately the election.

The first thing of note is the structure of the debate, which was being moderated by CNN. They clearly made an effort to take away some of the advantages of the more dynamic Donald Trump. There was no audience, so those reactions will not be present. Their microphones will be turned off when CNN decides they should not speak. Also, the media had “fact checkers” who were supposed to be checking facts in real time during the debate (didn’t see them on the channel I was watching). 

But no matter, it did not affect Trump much. It did seem that the moderators supported Biden a bit, but this could be in my head, and frankly, there was not a lot of opportunity to do so.

Let’s be real.  If you were to take a transcript of the debate (correcting Joe’s stuttering speech into the talking points he was supposed to be using), no one on either side would be persuaded. I thought Trump carried the day by far, but Democrats are not going to agree with that. But…

Trump won. 

Biden’s appearance was actually shocking.

He looked like a zombie, talked in a near monotone, too fast, stuttering, and not moving his head.  When he was not speaking he looked like a deer in the headlights, eyes staring into space and mouth open. 

He had various “outbursts,” clearly well rehearsed to express emotion and utterly awkward. Several times his speech trailed off and in one instance he went silent and was rescued by the moderator.

Biden’s strategy of calling Trump a liar at every opportunity became obvious after a few rounds (and was forewarned by his campaign staff), and he had clearly rehearsed many ways. It may have been effective to start, but got old fast (I’m sure Democrats didn’t notice…).

For anyone who is on the fence, Biden looked old, feeble and frankly ready to fall over. His voice was not strong, his speech was stuttering and unsure, and he often became confused and scrambled his sentences. One could easily surmise that Biden is not competent and he no longer has the faculties to be President. He cannot prosecute a war, he should not be in charge of the nuclear codes, he no longer has a grasp of complex issues.

Trump on the other hand was typical Trump, albeit more sedate than usual.  His rhetoric was strong, he spoke well, he was engaged and intelligent. 

The conservative and social media will talk about this, publish clips and likely make a mockery of Biden’s performance. The mainstream liberal media will rebut those clips, giving them an even wider press.

This was exactly the result Republicans were hoping for, the contrast they were hoping for and the reason that Trump agreed to a debate so skewed against him.

I predict the polls will shift a couple of points toward Trump. This shift will persist at least until the next debate or next propaganda event.

Change my mind (or just wait and prove me wrong…).

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51 Comments

  1. Andrew Gutterman

    Neither. Biden came across as an old man who could not keep track of what he was saying. Trump reminded me of the Allman Brothers song “Lord, I was born a ramblin’ man”. Trump was all over the place, making up facts as he went along. Very incoherent.

    Both clearly are way too old for the job, but sadly, I suspect we are going to get one of them as as our next president.

    We are voting for the VP. In this case Harris is a disaster. We do not yet know who trump has in mind for his VP.

    Reply
    • Adrian Perry

      Sp0oken like a true dcemocrat.

      Reply
      • Tom

        Actually as an Independent, he is speaking the truth.

        Reply
        • frank stetson

          Tom, I would start by worrying what language AdriOance is speaking :>)

          Reply
  2. frank stetson

    Clearly, Joe Biden lost the debate and looked old. But Trump did not win, Biden lost. He looked incoherent, he missed obvious attack points, and when he got under Trump’s skin, he let him off. He lost.

    But Trump did not win. He lied from start to finish, admitted he talks to Putin, not sure before or after Ukraine, and had more than a few garbled, stream of unconsciousness. He said people kill babies after birth; that is not true, at least not legally true. He said we provided more funding to Ukraine than Europe – not true. He said Pelosi turned down National Guard, not true. He said food quadrupled in price, not true —- this goes on at this level over 30 times, according to fact checkers. Biden called him a liar but he did not put out the fire of lies Trump spewed.

    There we are. The demented versus the devil. It’s not a tough choice, but will the young, the minorities, the indy’s rally round the flag, old and worn as it is, but still showing our colors proud, and decide our future between two very different men, visions, and actions.

    Obama duffed a debate and came back. Reagan duffed a debate and came back. They claim Biden had a cold, but that was more than a cold. Biden needs to come back, be in situations where he can show his vitality, OR —– pass the baton quickly to someone he blesses as being our next, best, choice. And it’s not Harris, Harris is yet another boat anchor. It’s time to make a long look in the mirror and decide. Can he muster an energetic, in your face, non-stuttering, coherent campaign.

    Can’t bring back Obama, but Hillary is raring to go, Newsom could be convinced. It’s time for an LBJ moment and step down. He should have done it a year ago.

    Houston, we have a problem here. It’s time for a cognitive test, medical reports, anything to confirm he can physically do the job. OR get out of the way and tell us your choice as you gracefully exit, stage left of course.

    Reply
    • Archie

      President Trump. Has a nice ring to it. He’s back!!!!!! So spin spin spin!!!! Retard joe is worse than the public realized. So suck it up. Trump is on the way to reelection. Bwaaaaa!!!!!! I told you so.

      Reply
    • reward

      During the primaries, voters selected their choice for democratic presidential candidate. They knew what republicans knew about Biden’s conditions. Nothing has changed. It’s time for them to live with their decision, and not have some back room hacks make a different one for them.

      Reply
    • Ginger jamerson

      Lord…you got more WRONG than joeboy did. Where in the world did you get your fact checks? From liberal media….of course you did.

      Reply
    • Ginger jamerson

      You are wrong on so many points…do some research…for instance, NY passed an abortion bill…and cheered after the signing by cuomo..which allow a baby to be aborted at any point if a physician “deems” it necessary. That’s abortion at birth legally. Please check your internet …the US totally has given WAY more aid to Ukraine that any European country. From January 24, 2022, to February 29, 2024, the European Union (EU) institutions, such as the Commission and the EU Council, provided around 30 billion euros in bilateral financial, humanitarian, and military aid to Ukraine in view of the Russian invasion that started in February 2022. The highest value of allocations was recorded from the United States at approximately 67.1 billion euros. Food prices totally HAVE been 40% higher…not all food…but plenty have…eggs along were up 72% at one time, beef is STILL up 35%. Again, do a little research.. And Pelosi herself admitted in a recently released video how she takes the blame for NOT releasing the National Guard. It was HER responsibility…NOT Trump’s

      Reply
      • frank stetson

        Ginger, like Trump, just saying the words does not make it so. And for both debaters, nuance and spin will always factor. But Trump is an egregious, obvious, liar at a level that can hurt people given his power of influence. Thanks for the response, glad you’re reading my commentary that Horist says remains unread. Here’s my response that I hope you find factual.

        Abortion post birth is murder and no state allows it. Trump lied big time. This explains any nuances like palliative care, etc. It’s PBS/NPR, so might be too liberal for you, but checks out as pretty tame politically and highly trusted on the facts. Perhaps you can prove your NY allegation, I can’t. *https://www.wlrn.org/government-politics/2023-07-25/desantis-false-claim-post-birth-abortions*

        While your “quoted stats” on aid seems to be from Statistica, (were they?) and, if so, represents bilateral aid which includes military, financial, and humanitarian and is absolutely correct. For military aid, which I think was the statement, the following pretty much says Biden was spot on: *https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/05/world/ukraine-money-military-aid-intl-dg* You may have a point, but need to “go to the tape.” The article also shows the job Biden has done to make it a global effort plus how many other countries gave money in far great ratio’s to their gpd than the US — and that’s an important consideration.

        Last I checked, quadrupled means 400%; that’s not what you showed. He lied, but reality sucks too. Worse yet, inflation may be down but prices are not. I really don’t have to do research to know 400% is a lie.

        Lastly, the House Insinuation Investigation Committee has a habit of guilt by sound bite as proven with edited data as determined in public, the court of FOX, where lying is not only condoned, it’s appreciated to a tune of $787 million worth of lies. The HIIC did the same on the tape which really needs a full review by all of us. Pelosi has no authority to call the guard out to protect the Capitol. At best, she sits on an oversight board. TRUMP was our commander in chief, he can call out anyone, these were his people, he sat for over three hours watching on TV.

        Here’s a fuller, yet still need more analysis for a complete story, but this is fuller than your sound bites as to the Trump lie. I still say we all need more, but I think the concept that this was Nancy’s fault is wishful thinking, but neither practical or posssible. *https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/trump-blames-nancy-pelosi-jan-6-debate-1235048545/*

        Sounds like the “royal we” at best. She has no control, no authority, over the nation’s troops. She is on a committee for Capitol Police oversight just like many Republicans.

        Feel free to come on back with some counter facts, but pretty sure Joe was spot on for these comments.

        Reply
    • P seaver

      Wow. We’re u there to knkw that trump lied. Sorry didn’t know u were invi,fed I;what u say he lied about. Wowo

      Reply
    • Joe Gilbertson

      That was the goal, the debate wasn’t going to convince anyone to change parties, Trump agreed to it because he knew Biden would look old and sabotage himself.

      No, despite the statements of the biased talking heads that you listen to, Trump lied very little. Biden lied almost constantly.

      Nancy did turn down national guard, and some food has indeed quadrupled, eggs have more than doubled, Dr. Pepper is up 80%. steak is up 60%. Trump exaggerated the border crime problem in a couple of aspects (the sheer quantity is the real problem, and the interference with employment is certainly a massive issue, murder maybe not) but was more or less accurate. His rhetoric on abortion had some aspects of where he went from specific to general, but he did not overestimate the problem from the conservative viewpoint.

      Bide lied about the state of the economy, over and over again, and blamed inflation on Trump, and not his only reckless spending. He lied about success in afghanistan, he lied about America’s stance in the world, and denied responsibility for the wars and state of the world in general – or perhaps that is just him living in his own fantasy world.

      But I am glad you are seeing the reality that Joe is not fit…

      Reply
      • frank Stetson

        Yes, it’s a very sad day for me. Hoped for at least a fair showing.

        But you are very wrong and, frankly, deluded. Why you accept the lies boggles my mind.

        I will specify in a bit, but THINK: “some food has indeed quadrupled, eggs have more than doubled, Dr. Pepper is up 80%. steak is up 60%.” OK, I know you are an engineer, so I figure math skills. When does 100%, 80%, and 60% the same as 400% or quadrupled?

        You can say embellishment, but then your embellishment-hating buddy Horist will have to vote for Kennedy…… It was a bald-faced lie looking to scare people worse than they are scared about inflation already.

        Here’s the price of eggs: *https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/APU0000708111* I live in NJ and pay $2.99.

        Here’s steak: *https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/APU0000FC3101* I use custom so my prices don’t relate. However, look at the chart and tell me for steak that there’s not something else going on. Also, much or at least most of the increase is on Trump’s watch, go figure. Think it’s supply and demand with increased demand of Trumplicant idiots who blindly believe this guy demanding more red meat. Lock her up and more read meat :>)

        Can’t so Dr Pepper, who cares?

        Inflation is indeed SHARED by Biden and Trump. It’s just that under Trump, you were too scared of death to go out and buy things like we do under Biden. And, MR Engineer who I know’s knows facts and specificity, I never said Biden was unfit. I do feel he needs to prove his fitness though given this showing.

        Reply
        • Joe Gilbertson

          So you see 100%, 80% and 60% and you don’t find that alarming and appalling? You want me to find something that specifically went up 400%? THAT’S how you draw your line, not the fact that the savings and salaries of the American working dropped substantially?

          Reply
          • frank stetson

            Joe, the issue is: was Donald J. Trump lying through his teeth when he claimed 4 times. He did.

            Yes, inflation is terrible, prices are still too high and hurtful to people.

            You can say it’s “braggadocio,” it’s “hyperbole,” flowery or whatever, and while that may be, the fact remains that the ex-President lies, he lies a lot, and he never admits, much less accept or show contrition.

            And it matters: he was President, his words matter. In this case, he sows more fear where there is fear enough to begin with. Does he do it to help people even? No way. He does it to scare you info voting for him. It’s all about him. But it matters.

            When you are President and you move the Hurricane path as a lie, that can hurt people who make decisions based on it.

            When you are President and you suggest the possibility of a cure via uv lights and chlorine, people drank it and were harmed.

            Lies matter but lies from the top guy in the land are far worse.

            That’s where I am drawing the line. Truth matters and liars should face justice, either politically or legally.

            Now, I showed you the inflation path for the prices you showed, that are not current to that chart. Steak rose during Trump’s watch, why? Now you deflect to savings drop being the result of inflation. While in the mix, I honestly don’t know why savings have dropped and doubt that inflation is the sole cause.

            Here’s the savings rate: check out the covid period where it goes through the roof. What rises must fall and this chart alone shows how inflation was guaranteed as early as 2020 as money began to collect in savings across the land. *https://ycharts.com/indicators/us_personal_saving_rate#:~:text=US%20Personal%20Saving%20Rate%20is,long%20term%20average%20of%208.46%25.*

            Here’s the savings amounts: *https://www.statista.com/statistics/246261/total-personal-savings-in-the-united-states/#:~:text=Personal%20savings%20in%20the%20United,nearly%202.7%20trillion%20U.S.%20dollars*

            Note how you can see Trump pushing the bow wave to inflation as his tax cuts to the rich end up in the bank as savings, not the trickle down you promised. GDP growth was in the crapper, no one was spending, everyone was saving.

            And then covid hit, Trump (and Biden) flashed more cash, I gave a lot away, but myself and others just threw it in the bank and did not increase our spending.

            Then covid ended, and we did spend. Some kept spending. Too much. Some got caught by inflation. And it looks like we many have bottomed out but have a ways to go to read stability still

            In all this: Trump lies. He lies a lot. He lied many times more than Biden in that debate.

          • Joe Gilbertson

            You say that he lied, not because you know he did, but because all of the talking heads say that. It was planned by Biden’s debate preppers before hand that Biden would accuse Trump of lying no matter what he said.

            Congratulations you are an empty headed puppet.

            Inflation is 100% the responsibility of Joe Biden. The numbers are very plain in this respect. Very.

            And of course Biden takes credit for “the most jobs created by any President ever” because people went to work after Covid. Do you consider this to be a lie or not? Biden talks about how badly Trump handled covid, but Trump actually handed Biden a decent economy, a vaccine for Covid and sound policies for recovery. And yet more people died of Covid under Biden. Which person lied here?

            Abraham Lincoln once asked a crowd, if you call a tail a leg, how many legs does a dog have. “Five” cried the crowd. “Wrong” said Abe, “Calling a tail a leg, does not make it a leg.”

    • Norv

      Run anyone you want to. TRUMP will still win. He has a feel for the Majority. I did not hear one lie Trump said. He speaks like what I know is true. Not some lie, like Biden. He was not able to be President when the Demoncrats changed the voting ways. If we let them do the things they did on the 2020 election they will try to win at all cost. If you are gay, queer, or want to be something God did not intend for you to be, just keep it to yourself. You will just become a giant trying to get through the eye of a needle. If you do not know what I am talking about, that is the whole problem. Save yourself from this evil world. This is an evil generation and you all know it in your heart.

      Reply
  3. P seaver

    Open ur eyes U all kmow. Trumps years were safe and better
    He can only give America all he has for the next 4 years. Then ughhh.
    U ppl Ii guess don’t care that all the bad men that has come into the USA !!when we have so many bad guys here already and omg the drugs !!

    Drill baby drill

    Reply
  4. OrlandoRican

    Trump 2024.

    Reply
  5. Tom

    Here is what Blumberg Business said about the debate: ” President Joe Biden struggled in the campaign’s first presidential debate against Donald Trump, fanning worries about his age and raising questions among Democrats on whether they should replace him as their candidate. Biden misspoke numerous times, repeated himself and froze at the end of one answer. Trump, meanwhile, delivered responses filled with falsehoods and exaggerations, and refused to commit to accepting the outcome of November’s election. The view that Trump won the night also gave a small lift to the dollar.”

    As an independent, I think win or loss depends on what you were looking for. As an independent, I was looking for the truth, someone who had some policy that does the most good for the most people, policy that makes sense, supporting our allies and Ukraine, who will save Medicare/Medicaid, SS, and the ACA. I was looking for the candidate that had sound policies that keep things stable. I was not looking for spry physical performance from either – they are way too old for spry. And economies / inflation is cyclical, it comes and goes.

    I detected no lies with Biden. I detected many lies by Trump. So Biden won on truth.

    Trump was Trump, lying and creating his alternative reality and tried his hardest to get viewers to believe it. Trump even took credit for Biden’s Insulin cost reduction which was a signature achievement of his administration. Problem is Biden did not call him on the Trump theft. Trump also deflected and did not answer two important questions even after the moderators circled back to get his answer, he deflected again on Jan 6th, and accepting election outcomes. Biden did not call him on this. Trump lied on Jan 6th, porn star sex, Insulin cost reduction, economy where stats show several administration economies have been better than Trump administration economy, abortion that everybody wanted the issue handed back to the states which we know to be false, full term abortions which are rare and only usually given when mother’s life is at stake, lied about his tariff program and how it will hurt average Americans, lied about Medicare and SS cuts, justified revenge for his opponents, lied about inflation and his contribution to it, veteran care where he said he did great with Veterans but left office with veterans still suffering from burn pit fumes and cancers with no help from the VAetc. Trump did not answer questions about child care or the opioid crisis.

    Factually, Biden has a much better record than Trump. IF we did not have inflation right now, if food prices and energy prices were not higher than they should be, Trump would not even have a chance. But Americans these days are unfortunately very short sighted, thinking mostly of their wallet and very little of the consequences of elections: Autocracy, overwhelming Christian National conservative SCOTUS, bigger wars in Europe and Russo expansion if we do not help Ukraine win, disaster results of going to a federal income system based solely on tariffs – Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act proved this to be a major mistake, women’s rights and access to contraception and other health care like abortion (men need to think about this because it could be their wife or SO dying or bleeding out in the car), minority and protected classes rights, reduction of the national debt, streamlining instead of cutting programs to gain cost efficiencies instead of denying medical care, etc.

    I do not think Trump scored many or even any points with undecided voters. I do not know of any Independents saying “Gee, I can’t wait till Trump is president!”. Biden actually scored a lot of points on what we were looking for; but, he is not good at bragging about his own record – that’s a Catholic humility thing that is drummed into us while we are still in diapers. So Dems need to step up and help Biden in two areas: 1) Qwn the performance and do not sugar coat it – and play it back to show Biden where he missed hits and how to clarify the differences; 2) Help advertise his superior record; 3) Help Joe fact check Trump based on what Trump said this debate. Trump will not change his message because he thinks he is superior with no reason to change – and this is his Achilles heel, his pride. And his MAGA minions will gloat. MAGA is very puffed up right now. Joe needs to be Joe, not a fact based Joe, a heart felt Joe.

    As a US Veteran, I see this as one battle in a much larger war. Dems got work to do. I know they can reset and come out with an improved Joe that we all know and like.

    Reply
    • Joe Gilbertson

      You detected no lies from Biden? I believe that is called cognitive dissonance. It is right in front of you but you are unable to see it.

      Reply
      • tom

        Most of what I detected from Biden was stumbling, and weirdly switching mid subject to another subject like he did when he was asked about abortion and then midstream started discussing immigration. Tell me the lies you detected?

        You should stick to engineering if that really is what your degree is in. Cognitive dissonance is the discomfort a person feels when their behavior does not align with their values or beliefs. What I observed with Trump was bold face lies such as claiming he reduced insulin costs. He did not, or best economy ever when there were administrations that had better economies. You can read my summary to find out more about my observations. As far as Trump’s behavior, it was a bit subdued but still a little cocky and arrogant. But that is to be expected from him and especially at a debate. His behavior did not bother me at all.

        Reply
      • frank stetson

        Joe, That’s not cognitive dissonance. Think you might be thinking of something else. You may want to recast that with the proper term.

        Reply
        • Joe Gilbertson

          Cognitive dissonance definitely applies, but perhaps add Anosognosia to the mix. Perhaps your psychiatrist can look at your file for more accurate description of your psychosis. What’s his number?

          Reply
  6. Tom

    And lets not forget, this is not a government of one person or a single party – that is what Trump / MAGA wants. This is not an autocracy, it is a democracy – and we know democracies can be messy. This is a government admired by the world for its intelligent and dedicated servants, rule of law, a justice system admired by the world, safety nets admired by the world, and institutions that are solid and work for the people – all of which Trump despises and wants to tear down. This is the real battle.

    I caution Dems not to get sucked into the panic game. There is nothing but fear of failure stopping you from getting the vote out in mass and voting for Biden if you think his record his better, he tells the truth, he is stable, democratic, and is morally good. Biden will have much help to run the government just like any other president has, ie. Reagan is the best example, ironically a Republican.

    Trump in many ways represents darkness. So Dems, start shining the light!!! Be fearless in your efforts!

    Reply
    • frank stetson

      Thanks Tom, I feel better now. Plus, with Biden’s ability to take a punch, get knocked down, be viewed as down for the count, and come back from bad luck, tragedy, defeat, and more is legendary.

      Part of my issue was being 30 hours into a power failure with a 12-hour ETR and being told at 11.5 hours, buckled up for 20 more hours, watching the debate on my phone wondering if that generator hum would ever leave my skull, and I was feeling a bit down to begin with as I called of my AC handler coil repair for a recall issue I have been chasing for 6 months….. bad day at black rock.

      Moral of the story — power came on 40 hours in, ten hours before the SECOND ETR commit, AC guy didn’t get the message and all is right now. Still have one more handler to repair but we have a plan.

      I am a huge tennis fan. Each match has five sets, each set is until 6 games won, and ties are settled by a variety of tie-breakers. Very complex, could be six games in a set, could be 12 and a tie breaker game for 13 games, but the bottom line is each point. You must forget the games, the sets, and never think about the match. One point at a time. At some point, the player will face a mental challenge, a physical challenge or both. It’s can’t be avoided, you can take steps to minimize but the issue will always be — what do you do when face with that challenge? When it looks like its all over, what do you do. It’s just one point. Do you rise or crumble? Biden was down, out, yet he rose in 2016, can he do it again.

      A second tennis analogy is fear of closure. The less experienced or less qualified players often let up as the chance of victory is laid at their feet. Again, what does the opposer do when faced with that opportunity? Overcome or falter. Trump does this where he knows he has it in the bad, but still missteps to offer an opening. Foot in mouth syndrome for example.

      The last is what I call “eye of the tiger.” And that is whether you are facing loss or an opportunity in a let-up, do you get a point, suddenly realize you can win, and attack like hell unleashed in a tornado with no quarter given, not even a wink. Biden has that, if he smells blood, he will not let up, he will not falter, he will put the dog down, kick it, and put it down and out. If he gets a wink of an edge, he will not falter from there.

      But the bottom line is the game is made up of points, and at any point, one point can change the direction of that game, then the set, and ultimately the match. I have seen many a champion in the toilet, no way to return, statistically DOA, and they get one point. Then another. Another, and suddenly, they have turned it around and win the match, the goal that champions cannot prioritize over a single shot.

      phew, again, thanks and I agree yet my issue is the folks on the fence. The young, minorities who are looking the other way, everyone else who was watching to see if Biden is running on 8 pistons, but due to age, his compression is down and he has less power for the rigors of the job. But yes, yes, we are hiring him for his mine, his heart, and his vision —- none of which are gone. The rest can be compensated for by his actions and his support. I am not panicked for me, my path is set. But this thing will hinge on a few points in a few States, and we need all of our team to be pulling on the oars in the same direction. Think we have less, not more, after that and, once again, Joe will be leading from behind. He seems to relish it.

      Reply
      • Tom

        Exactly Frank. From a military perspective, this was just the opening volley. There will be more engagements and more chances to win.

        I really do not think Trump impressed many if any Independents. I saw nothing different about him or his policies, except he was behaving a little better – but we all saw his court rants, name calling, and remember his first term revolving door of staffers and all of the firings. And we have all heard their complaints and accounts of Trump’s behavior. Nothing he can do will erase those images. He had to practice behaving and being good – but Biden does good behavior and respect naturally, and we see this.

        But I doubt that Trump can maintain the good behavior facad. As far as the younger folks, I doubt that many of them watched the debate. You know, less than half of voters under 30 said they would watch the debate, according to the latest NPR/PBS News/Marist poll, which was conducted earlier this month. Its too early for young voters to get engaged. Most of them have many other distractions, unlike we older folks. Most younger voters feel both candidates are too old and out of touch with young people’s views which do tend to be more liberal. This is where Biden will have an edge. Young men with criminal records may sympathize and relate more to Trump, but college young will go the Biden direction. Younger women watching probably hated some things Trump said and his policies on abortion, as well as his views of women as man toys. Younger men are gullible and they will require the teaching of the older seasoned veterans putting out the message constantly. That is where the ground game will count. Talk to young voters in your area and see how they feel. Give them the real facts, not the Trump alternate reality. Be a good political coach to them. Teach the Children Well – remember this ole song! 🙂

        By the way, overall viewership of last night’s debate was at least 35% less than the first debate in 2020. 75M in 2020, barely 48M 2024. This says many folks feel they know these two men and they won’t learn anything new. And they were right, I learned nothing new. Joe just had a bad night I suspect due to fatigue from all of those UN and G7 meetings, Normandy, and debate prep, and that is why he was raspy and seemed to have a cold. His handlers need to take better account of his trip schedules and keep him home two weeks before a debate, and make sure of his diet and rest.

        As an Independent, I hope that the Dem party comes out of this stronger and more focused because we like having to robust parties to choose from. Yesterday was just the first inning in a nine inning game.

        Reply
    • Joe Gilbertson

      Every heard of a guy named Navalny? If you do some research you may find that Biden and Putin have something in common.

      Reply
      • tom

        Why don’t you just tell us so we can fact check you?

        Reply
        • Joe Gilbertson

          Oh gee, that’s what I want. To express facts and then have idiots like you mindlessly parrot the Democratic responses. Let’s say this together now “Orange man baaaad, Orange man baaaad, Orange man baaaaad”

          Reply
          • frank stetson

            Way to keep an open mind Joe. No wonder you are a free speech terrorist, you have already made up your mind….

            No wonder you never source nor fact check. What, me worry?.

      • Tom

        Joe, and an Independent, I find your quora.com teaser is ridiculous. Biden had nothing to do with coordinating Trump’s legal cases like Putin masterminded Navalny’s death. You are being ridiculous. This is another Trump perverted equivalency which we Independents have seen many times before!!!

        Trump did it to himself and the DOJ finally got around to him and all of his motions. Trump falsified business records to cover up a sex scandal just days before Nov 2020 election. Trump took classified documents and it was the National Archives who pursued Trump for the documents and when Trump stone walled them, they went to the DOJ for help. It is Trump who incited people to storm the capital, called for Pence to be hung, and created false elector lists that are now being prosecuted in AZ and soon in WI and a few other states. You are way deep in Trump alternative reality.

        If you have any proof of what your stupid comment suggests, please post it and turn it in to the FBI.

        Reply
        • Frank stetson

          Obama for VP; totally legal, enhances black vote, may cause hardcore Trumplicants to go full scanners.

          Reply
          • Tom

            Frank, I got this a few minutes ago from Blumberg News. Just FYI, but I think its a good omen.

            By Friday, Biden’s performance had sent parts of the Democratic political establishment into a tizzy. “DEFCON 1,” said former President Barack Obama’s campaign manager, David Plouffe. A steady drumbeat of talking heads took to cable urging Biden to make way for a younger candidate—though it’s late in the game for such a strategy. Biden’s Congressional allies stood by him Friday, but the talk among doubters was centered on Vice President Kamala Harris, Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer and California Governor Gavin Newsom. Harris would be the only candidate able to inherit Biden’s large campaign war chest. Newsom however topped many informal lists. He’s “arguably best equipped—in fundraising chops, in messaging and in campaign infrastructure—to step up in an emergency,” Erika D. Smith wrote in Bloomberg Opinion. But by Friday afternoon, the president had moved to quell the panic. Following a morning of Republican glee and Democratic handwringing, a decidedly more energetic Biden took to the stage at a rally in North Carolina. “I don’t walk as easy as I used to. I don’t walk as smoothly as I used to. I don’t debate as well as I used to,” he conceded to a cheering crowd. “But I know what I do know—I know how to tell the truth, I know right from wrong and I know how to do this job.”

        • Joe Gilbertson

          Are you f*ing kidding? Are you that naive?

          Reply
      • frank stetson

        Joe, Was Navalny a felon convicted on the facts by a jury of his own peers in the town where he grew up and gave so, so, very much that the people respond with favor? The facts being a paper trail a mile long and witness testimony to the hush payments to quiet stories about a little spanking sex with a porn star from coming out full Comey right before the 2016 election and right after his access hollywood “grab em by the pussy” comments. Was Navalny tried like that? Did Trump go to jail like Navalny? Was he poisoned like Navalny? I sense no similarity except you and Trump whining about him getting caught. Then you whine the judge is unfair. Then you whine the jury is unfair. Then you whine the DA said he was going to prosecute to get elected.

        And then he did indeed live up to that and he successfully prosecuted Trump whose punishment will be handed down, very, very soon.

        Yeah, felon, rapist, defamer, business cheat, tax cheat, charity cheat, university cheat —— all by court.
        And, on Biden, you got allegations.

        Reply
        • Joe Gilbertson

          Hmmm, a ‘felon’ convicted by the ‘facts’ by a ‘jury of his own peers’. And this of course had nothing to do with his opposition to Putin, correct? And his ending up in the arctic circle and eventually dying, had NOTHING to do with Putin and the potential threat of getting votes at the ballot box.

          It is very funny how you only see what you want to see, and the simplest comparisons just escape you.

          Reply
          • Frank stetson

            Learn to read for meaning Joe. Your comprehension is lacking.

            If you see a Trump – Navalny comparison, you are wrong.

            I did not write what you think I did. A question is not a statement. It’s funny how you see what you want to see if you avoid punctuation.

          • Joe Gilbertson

            And if you don’t see it you are blind, but we already knew that.

          • frank stetson

            Joe,
            Can you prove that Trump is a political prisoner being poisoned and locked away? You can’t so you just beat your chest and scream that I am blind.

            But you can’t back up your opinion except by name calling and sneers.

  7. frank stetson

    Yeah, it was a fiery speech making me wonder if he skipped the drugs for the debate, and make up for it in Carolina……… just saying.

    Like I said: Obama for VP, legal and solves a world of issues.

    What says THE INDEPENDENT about that?

    Reply
  8. Tom

    Hmmmm, I would have to contemplate it. You say it is legal so lets go on that basis. Will Obama be able to put his pride aside and take the number 2 position after being number 1 for eight years. Or do you mean Ms. Obama? Lets assume Ms. Obama.

    Harris is a big objection of many across the electorate spectrum so it might solve that problem. She does have the issue of that video where she expressed not having pride in her country. She is well spoken and articulate. I am afraid that many will view her VP-ship as an extension of Mr. Obama’s presidency, but that being said, he was fairly popular so the two may cancel.

    Joe Manchin would be the best choice for VP. And then he could run one term as POTUS and train a younger person. He would even steal GOP voters which I do not think Ms. Obama can do as much of. And he is pretty squeaky clean and would rip Trump or any Trump VP pic to shreds. And he would give Indies a feeling of confidence that if Biden declines, the country will still be in good, stable, honest hands.

    I really think Dems ought to press Manchin on this. Anyone that is moderate would win many swing voters because it would be a sign to Indies that the Dem party wants to move to centrist-moderate and maybe just lean a little left on a few issues.

    Reply
    • Joe Gilbertson

      Have you considered that Michell Obama has never done anything except be first lady? She has never been elected, never administered anything, never been under stress, never had to actually deal with hard issues with the American people. This is the person you want to be President? Why don’t you just elect Martin Sheen? He at least played the president on TV.

      Reply
      • frank stetson

        Yes Joe I did, four hours before you uttered that. You can re-read it below but I said: “And no, not Michele, she is a Hillary-type lightning rod, may be smart, but little experience.” Open mouth, insert foot. But I don’t need to tell you.

        Reply
        • Joe Gilbertson

          Frank, you know I don’t read all of your crap, even on the rare occasion when you are right…

          Reply
          • Frank stetson

            What damage dod Obama do, Joe?

            Can’t you engineer support for your own statement or was it just more crap from you that few read, less believe.

  9. frank stetson

    Manchin is no longer a Democrat. He was a WV Democrat that put WV before the nation. Twas his right, but not exactly “our guy.”

    And no, not Michele, she is a Hillary-type lightning rod, may be smart, but little experience. Granted, Barak would not be Barak without Michele.

    But Barak, and then we get Michele anyways.

    Kamala will not be able to whine too much no matter how bad she feels about the unfairness of it all. Barak must be bored, must have caught up with friends n family over the past four years, and really ——— has to do nothing but take the job. Not that we are asking for ANY work, unless….. unless…..

    But cures the “he’s to old” risk, retains the black and minority vote Manchin couldn’t touch, his state is one of the most racist in the nation, on his watch, and brings back a lot of brainpower to the executive office. I mean what the hell is he doing anyway?

    Like I have been saying, time to get creative, time to give one to avoid the bastard son of the gipper and time to give one for the gipper that is America.

    Plus, oh my would it piss Trump off and that means the Trumplicants who will believe whatever lies he tells them about Obama. If Obama has any thought of retribution —— this is HIS chance to play.

    Reply
    • Joe Gilbertson

      People say that Biden is the worst President we have ever had. I disagree. Obama did more damage, intelligently and willfully. Biden is just incompetent and compromised.

      Reply
      • Frank stetson

        What damage did Obama do, Joe

        Reply
        • Joe Gilbertson

          Well, lets see… Just on the social side he single handedly created more feelings of racism than any person since the civil war, he was a one-man marketing arm for the KKK and other racist organizations like BLM and Antifa, actually creating conflicts where there were none. He corrupted our medical system beyond recognition and guaranteed that prices would spiral out of control. He crapped on energy, he set the stage for some of the worst social trends imaginable, he created the deep state, he hired incompetent people, including Hillary whose work as SecState embarrassed us badly. His liberal policies paved the way for the opioid crisis, he actually EXPANDED spying on the America people.

          There were many telling moments in his speeches. He didn’t love or respect America, he wanted to punish it.

          Reply
          • frank stetson

            Joe, that it’s your opinion, but can you see the humor in saying Barack Obama, “he single handedly created more feelings of racism than any person since the civil war, he was a one-man marketing arm for the KKK and other racist organizations like BLM and Antifa.” It’s not black humor, it’s Black humor :>)

            That’s your opinion, and beyond the humor factor, you cannot and have not proved anything, factually. Paper will not refuse ink, but truth needs facts. For example, can you measure “feelings of racism,” or are you measuring your own feelings? Are you scientific, analytical, or emotional in this opine.

            You are the rare engineer that makes his points without numbers or a diagram…. You spew a lot of shit, embellishing your early thought, but no facts. Not one. Remember, your buddy Horist hates embellishers. Really hates them.

            You say, Obama was the marketing arm for the KKK? Show us. I mean I know you felt it, but can you show it? Factually. Quantitatively? Oh hell, Joe, I’ll take a qualitative assessment. Certainly, you can muster that.

            FYI: fun fact. There is no organization called Antifa, and the antifa mantra has never been accused, by any sane person, of being racist. You have called a Black man, a racist, now you call an anti-racist, anti-fascist mantra as racist — priceless. But you did not prove it. Factually. I know you emotionally feel it, but can you show it in reality?
            How is blm racist? Remember, show your work :>) I mean your party is supported by all sorts of White Supremacists, you acknowledge them with orders (stand pretty, stand strong, get down tonight babe :>), but one that supports black lives as mattering is racist? Did they not offer a white guy a job? Pay him less? Lynch him?

            You claim he corrupted our medical system. The one Don said was easy to fix and then couldn’t get it up. For four years he did next to nothing and what he did sucked. Got a spanking there too. Membership in the ACA has grown by 300% over the past decade. That’s over 21,000,000 plans and 45,000,000 Americans that you could not cover. That’s over 13% of America Joe. Perhaps corrupt, but working. Hey, maybe there are all black and that’s your problem. It’s racist :>) (sarcasm alert)

            FYI health expenditures were up under Trump for obvious reasons but I cannot find the inflation rate and the ACA effect. Do you have it to make that claim?

            How did he crap on energy? Oil production was up every year under Obama. Yes, Trump went beyond that, but Biden has overshot Trump already and we don’t have the fourth year.

            And then the wild ones: “set the stage for some of the worst social trends” oh my — you really hate my kind, don’t you? Funny, most rednecks love me. What is it Joe, return to Mayberry? Back to 1965 perhaps. Sorry, dude, but I’m gonna party likes it’s 1999, let my freak flag fly because I’m a volunteer for America, just like you, and just like you —– don’t tread on me or my social.

            “he created the deep state,” and what are you smoking? You don’t even know what the deep state is or who the members are. WTF are you even talking about tossing these stupid names that don’t even exist. What even does YOUR deep state consist of?

            You say “he hired incompetent people,” and your guy only hired the best? Look at the revolving door of losers leaving. Some before they even sat down. How many felons, commies, and trash did he have in the oval. He’s got a commie living in his back yard, next to the top secrets. Trump holds a record of bad hiring. Can you say Cohen…. He fucking married a communist. And he was a Democrat for most of his life until he found a better class of suckers.

            OK, Hillary, we can debate, I can give on that even if I do not totally agree. But “his liberal policies paved the way for the opioid crisis,” seems fictional and “ he actually EXPANDED spying on the America people” at a greater increase than Bush/Cheney is doubtful and if he did, how much for anti-terrorism purposes.

            You spew a lot of shit. Prove some. I expect crickets or ah hominem level comebacks. Hey, you can add gun running for fun; I’ll buy that one. Your flowery opinions are losing their luster, the rose has wilted. Facts, evidence, sources matter. The rest is just emotional feelings.

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