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Biden sticks with policy of “concern” as Iran joins the Ukraine War

Biden sticks with policy of “concern” as Iran joins the Ukraine War

Iran has moved in as a military ally to Russia in terms of the Ukraine War.  It started when the Supreme Leader in Tehran started selling drones to Russian President Putin – drones being used to commit war crimes on the innocent citizens of Ukraine.  There were then reports that Iran was sending personnel to the war zone to train Russian soldiers on the use of the drones – and even operating them on behalf of the Russian forces.  We more recently learned that Iran is building a drone manufacturing plant in Russia.

In the face of the increasing ties between the Madman of Moscow and the world’s number one terrorist in Tehran, White House spokesman John Kirby said that the administration was “concerned.”  Absence from the statement was any real reaction.  What is President Biden going to do about it?  What is the counterpunch?  On those essential questions, we only hear crickets.

Concern?  That is the best Biden can offer in the face of a mounting threat from America’s enemies?

It may be that the greatest threat to American security and exceptionalism – and world leadership — is not some bogus trumped-up ongoing coup attempt – or even millions of illegals crossing the southern border – but from a White House without a proactive foreign policy – without a steely-eyed willingness to confront America’s challenges and challengers across the globe.

America was once the essential leader of the world – the strongest military … the inspiring democracy … the greatest commercial enterprise … and the strongest military.  The strength of America’s leadership throughout the world was both perception and reality.  Today, it is neither.  We may still have the largest and most powerful military in the world, but it has been mothballed by an acquiescent foreign policy that has reached its nadir in the Biden administration.

Yes, we are concerned – and we damn well should be.  But missing from the response is what we are going to do about it.  Concern — and words of condemnation – are ineffective against aggression and belligerence. 

What can we do about Iran?  More sanctions?  Okay.  Terminate all negotiations over a nuclear deal.  Intercept shipments of drones and other weapons from Iran to Russia.  Provide support for the demonstrators in the streets of Iran to overthrow the regime they hate.  It may be time to give Israel the green light to attack Iranian drone factories and nuclear facilities. Time to up our support for Ukraine by imposing that no-fly zone.  Join the western nations in supplying a lot more weaponry and ammunition to the Ukraine military.  Authorize attacks of military targets inside Mother Russia – maybe even that new drone factory.  

I understand that such options scare the hell out of the globalist left and the isolationist right.  My challenge to them is to counter my offerings with their own proposals.  What would they do to push back against growing anti-Americanism in the world?   Or are they stuck on “concern” as the only option?

After Obama failed to bring down Syrian despot Bashar al-Assad after promising to do so … and after Trump championed isolationism with the threat to pull out the American military from Iraq, Syria, South Korea, and even Europe … Biden surrendered to terrorists in Afghanistan and responds to the Russian build up around Ukraine with nothing more than “concern.” 

All the concern in the world – about the Ukraine War … about Iran joining in … about Kim Jong-un’s new missiles that can reach the United States … about China’s new aggressiveness … about the suppression of democratic institutions in Hong Kong … about the violent suppression of the protests in Iran … about the crime plague in our major cities … about the millions of illegals entering America each year … about the drug epidemic … does nothing to stop any of it. 

Concern should be the first step toward real resolution.  Not the final response.  Because of all the past failures to show leadership and to respond effectively, we now have an alliance between two very dangerous adversaries.  And again, the response from the Biden White house is … concern.

So, there ‘tis,

About The Author

Larry Horist

So,there‘tis… The opinions, perspectives and analyses of Larry Horist Larry Horist is a businessman, conservative writer and political strategist with an extensive background in economics and public policy. Clients of his consulting firm have included such conservative icons as Steve Forbes and Milton Friedman. He has served as a consultant to the Nixon White House and travelled the country as a spokesman for President Reagan’s economic reforms. He has testified as an expert witness before numerous legislative bodies, including the U. S. Congress. Horist has lectured and taught courses at numerous colleges and universities, including Harvard, Northwestern, DePaul universities, Hope College and his alma mater, Knox College. He has been a guest on hundreds of public affairs talk shows, and hosted his own program, “Chicago In Sight,” on WIND radio. Horist was a one-time candidate for mayor of Chicago and served as Executive Director of the City Club of Chicago, where he led a successful two-year campaign to save the historic Chicago Theatre from the wrecking ball. An award-winning debater, his insightful and sometimes controversial commentaries appear frequently on the editorial pages of newspapers across the nation. He is praised by readers for his style, substance and sense of humor. According to one reader, Horist is the “new Charles Krauthammer.” He is actively semi-retired in Boca Raton, Florida where he devotes his time to writing. So, there ‘tis is Horist’s signature sign off.


  1. John J

    Biden is NOT the man for the job, the voters and our election system really screwed America in 2020

  2. Joseph S. Bruder

    Wow, you forget a lot of Trump’s actions during his term… blaming Syria on Obama? Trump just pulled out of Syria and left everything there for the Russians. In Afghanistan, Trump “negotiated” a withdrawal timeline and after not protecting any assets there or moving anyone out or preparing for anything at all, Biden had to scramble and do as much as he could in a month or two… and got the job done reasonably well… and yet you blame Biden, not Trump.

    Trump tore up the agreement with Iran that monitored their nuclear sites. If the US had kept up our side of the bargain, maybe Iran wouldn’t so antagonistic to the west and so quick to side with Russia. They might have even emerged as an ally in the Middle East. And possibly not, but breaking treaties with a country and destroying their economy doesn’t usually help relations.

    And would we even be in this war without Trump propping up Putin for the whole 4 years he was President? From letting his flapping lips drop military secrets to advocating for Russia on the world stage, to witholding money from Ukraine to blackmail them into creating dirt on Hunter Biden (and don’t give me any crap about Trump being “cleared” of that charge – he was protected by the Republican Party, who are paying for that little misdeed as we speak.)

    I know you hate the Democrats from the 1960’s with a passion, and that carries into your thinking about Democrats today. But take a look at Trump’s actions before blaming Biden for using using the word “concern”. Biden inherited a lot of Trump’s foriegn policy messes, and
    has handled the war between Russia and Ukraine with the best support that he can, especially given the realities of what could happen if Putin goes off the rails. Biden rallied all of the west to Ukraine’s side, put in as many sanctions as possible (and some Europeans are still pushing against cutting off all energy sales because it hurts them too). There are already sanctions against Iran, and in due time that might have to increase too.

    You’re already blaming Biden for inflation caused by Putin’s war, even though it’s a world-wide problem and the US is doing better than most, and the Fed is tackling that as best they can. Biden escaped a full-scale mid-term loss, and Republicans are in complete chaos just trying to get a speaker elected because of the pro-Trump idiots in the House. Trump is on course to start getting indicted over all his crimes. I hate to think of politics in terms of winning or losing – because the American people usually lose when there’s that kind of competition – but the Republicans are destroying themselves from the inside, and Democrats are successfully running the country with almost no Republican support.

    So, don’t give me this “America has lost its leadership role” crap. Trump did a lot of damage to the US image and infrastructure. Biden is repairing that damage. Ukraine will win, with the support of the West, because Russia and Trumpism were essentially the same, and the West has started to figure out that they need to turn away from Trump’s isolationism and autocracy.

    • larry Horist

      Joseph S Brudder … You just cannot carry on an intelligent dialogue ON SUBJECT. You are all about whataboutism. You are obsessed with Trump. Maybe you do not mount a defense of Biden’s actions because you cannot.

      • Joseph S. Bruder

        Yet again you misspell my nom-de-plume… This is a Trumpian 3rd-grade level insult. You practically went ballistic because someone called you Horowitz, and yet here you are doing the same thing. I’d say it was intentional, but you make so many grammatical and spelling errors that it’s hard to tell.

        But you never fail to insult your respondents, because you have nothing to come back with against their arguments. Your disprespect for your readers is right up there with Gilbertson’s obvious contempt in his new catchphrase “you’re excused”. You often accuse others of ad hominem arguments, but it’s your go-to answer to everyone who disagrees with you.

        You often bring up the supposed faults and missteps of Presidents for the last 20 years, but there’s always a hole in your criticisms. You never criticize Trump’s foreign policy gaffes. It’s such a glaring omission that it screams “Trump”. You just can’t admit that Trump was by-far the worst President we’ve had and has done more damage to this country that anyone in US history.

        Your hatred for Democrats is always on display. You’re making a HUGE deal out of Biden using the word “concerned”. What exactly do you expect him to say publicly? “We’re scared to death that Putin might pull out the Big One”… “We’re going to bomb the shit out of Russia”… “Let’s give Crimea to Putin and maybe he’ll go away”? Do you want Biden to crash the stock market, or create a panic, or provoke or embolden Putin, or even just give away any negotiating position that the US might have? Unlike Trump, who was constantly (and very obviously) groveling to Putin, Biden is a little more circumspect about what he says.

        YOU brought up Syria and Iran and placed the blame on Democrats. YOU criticized America’s leadership in the world. YOU are attacking Biden and Obama, while giving Trump a pass. YOU brought up Afghanistan and blamed it on Biden without mentioning Trump’s role in the withdrawal. YOU also brought up Iraq and China and North Korea, which I ignored because they were off-subject and purely Democrat-bashing. I was answering those arguments. If they’re “off-subject”, blame yourself.

        • larry Horist

          Joseph S Bruder. A meaningless typo is much different than completely changing a name as an anti-Semitic inference. LOL … A five graph personal attack accusing me of … personal attacks. That is rich.

          • Joseph S. Bruder

            Funny, I don’t remember putting any graphs in my post…

            You insulted me, I addressed that in the first two paragraphs. Disrespecting someone by misspelling their names is just as much an insult as changing it to something that sounds similar. You yourself, just one or two columns back made a big deal because Frank’s name came out as F instead of Frank, when that is more often a “feature” of the website, and not even intentional.

            Pointing out that you invariably use ad hominem attacks it not insulting you, it’s pointing out the obvious. You accused me of being obsessed with Trump, but you did mention him in your piece, and omitted many pertinent facts about Trump’s role while accusing Democrats of the same thing. Saying that you hate Democrats is not an insult, it’s a fact shown in every piece you write.

            You’re obviously not going to address your concentration on the word “concern”, or what you expect a President to say publicly. The fact you never criticized the former President who couldn’t help but spew his every mindless thought and insult out to Twitter seems to suggest that you prefer that mode of communication regardless of what response it provokes.

            And finally, I pointed out that every topic I addressed was in your piece above. Not an insult, just that you were criticizing my post for being off-topic, when everything I wrote about was in your piece. If you’re insulted by that, maybe it’s because you’re ashamed to admit that you were wrong.

    • Larry kuhn

      Are you really comparing Biden with Trump?
      Seriously? So the stupidity of the democrats ain’t an act. Elections have consequences. The same with voter fraud

      • frank stetson

        Again, and again…you got over 60 cases tossed out of court. You got a half dozen recounts, done by your own stooges, all yielding nothing. The first DeSantimonious voter fraud sting is being tossed. His second voter fraud revelation, with testimony, tapes and a ten year audit trail went dark for since announcement over a month ago.

        There is no widespread voter fraud, no giant democratic conspiracy, just the so,so gerrymandering, one-off lone wolfs cheats (or errors in judgement), but nothing that amounts to anything except folks like you continuing to spew The Big Lie.

        • Larry kuhn

          The evidence was there. The courts were too chicken shit to resolve it. That’s why I no longer believe in justice.

          • frank stetson

            Or do you just have really bad lawyers?

            I mean they do lose a lot, except at the SCOTUS where they seem to get a buy for some reason.

            Facts seem to say The Big Lie is accurate name, it’s a lie. There was no wide spread cheating, you have not proved it except to whine about the courts, the AZ Republicans, and now — Trump himself

            You lost, let’s move forward. It’s been two years. You still lost. Let’s move ahead.

    • roll back america again

      Another mental defective who is divorced from reality.
      Afghanistan- Dementia in Chief- Made the most insane political -military decision in his abrupt pullout. He stranded Americans and many who supported Americans for past 20 years. Oops human life matters little to the big guy unless its a vote for him. Then we left approx. $96 Billion in military goodies for the terrorists to use against us and allies, or otherwise sell spanking new world class arms to raise cash for other fun activities such as torture and beheading along with their recruitment programs while simultaneously starving the population of food and education. Also Russia, N Korea, Iran, and China are loving the ability to reverse engineer the weaponry as well from the gifts left behind since the big man had to run from the enemy in days leaving it all behind with no future plan cause he is clueless in making any type of sensible presidential decision. His veteran son may be fortunate to have passed rather to live in shame of one of worst military decisions in our foreign relations history made by dad. Now are adversaries are scooping up rare earth minerals that are one of the few resources in that rock pile country while we have almost none domestically. The impacts of the world class blunder goes on and on while the President when asked about his decision making he replied “I turned the page” –(on Afghanistan)– Wow he is so Presidential isn’t he? with or without the teleprompter. Wouldn’t you just love him in your foxhole during incoming enemy fire?– He was pathetic in 1990 s one of few Senators to vote AGAINST first gulf war –while most every leader world wide supported G. Bush to get that tyrant out of Kuwait. Even Barack knows this guy has been on the wrong side of every public policy decision for 40 years

      Moving on lets look at S. border. We have up to 2 million plus/yr. flooding into USA through our wall made from air, water and tumbleweed With another doubling of fresh migrants, terrorists, criminals, drug mules(fentanyl killing 10’s of thousands of citizens here )and sex trade cartel workers flooding in unabated as well as diseased not to mention uneducated and totally impoverished as Title 42 is cut down.

      Ok lets be sympathetic to the cause! Where’s the Joe and Kamala plan? USA builds 1.1million to max $1.9million new housing units each year. Where will USA citizens and wage earners live if we are not even producing enough shelter for ourselves not to mention 2 million new guests and guest number set to increase wildly.

      Then where’s the medical, food, education going to come from for 5, 10, 15, million guests in need. It takes $20,000-$30,000 per capita annually to minimally support any one of us. So has Congress approved a corresponding budget for all this each year? Do the math and look at the zero Fed budget allocation and give me the empirical answer. There is none—we are in chaos— You are in denial–So lets fix your problem by admitting 2 million per month and in next 1-2 years so the problem will overwhelm our entire system —sounds like social implosion or anarchy–but my point will be well proven.
      Then tell me you still like the Joe Kamala plan!—-No wall now but there will be walls in 50 states and thousands of middle class communities for self defense.

      Then where are they all going to work — You need min 14 years education or a trade to be productive and self sufficient?

      Remember machines and robotics and all technologies will progressively eliminate labor demand for most all the new guests. So will they in perpetuity just sit and wait for govt handouts to arrive while they watch TV or worse yet cause trouble.

      $31 Trillion in NATIONAL DEBT now generates annual interest expense exceeding the $880 billion defense dept. budget.

      Remember interest rates are 3.5% higher and climbing— Guess what Joe supporters: we are cooked on this path and I hardly scratched the surface on current democratic decision making.

      We are on the cusp of problems no one can solve –especially a room full of 80 year old ultra liberal spenders.

      I could write more but you are probably overwhelmed by these facts alone

      Happy Holidays

  3. frank stetson

    The only thing Biden should do is 1) support Ukraine with more anti-drone defenses 2) continue to work with the UN and the Biden coalition for economic sanctions and other more offensive options, 3) provide more air defenses like the Patriots I think we are about to ship and the NASMS shipped by Norway, and 4) be done with it: allow Ukraine to enter NATO. Then we can “get it on” and destroy each other, as Larry desires to save face.

    At the end of November, we shipped 150 heavy machine guns capable of shooting down drones. We also sent 10,000 nasm shells used to shoot down drones as well to go with the brand new nasm launchers they just got, from Norway. We know of two, the full number is undisclosed. The nasms provide drone to helicopter defense over a much wider range than the Stingers. The Ukrainians just completed training on these as well which will be part of the European Sky Shield being set up by 15 nations, led by Germany.

    I think going to War with Russian, Iran, China, North Korea, or any other country supporting Russia is still premature given the recent actions. Perhaps we should wait to see whether they are successful before Larry sends our kids to die for his vanity.

    • larry Horist

      Frank Stetson … In other words, you are willing to let Putin win this war. Like Biden, it is more about what is not being done. Prolong the war and eventually lose. You cannot show me anything that changes the trajectory. You call a war between us and Russia, Iran, China and North Korea as “premature.” Talk about hyper fearmongering. And do not give me that crap about kids dying for my vanity. I have skin in that game and you only have your empty talk. And you seem to have no concern for the innocent men, women and children dying, maimed, crippled and displaced by Putin. For them, you are a cold and heartless person. And you ignore the future Americans who will be killed and kidnapped because we do not defeat those promulgating evil. Unlike you, I do not talk about you in the third person … so In will say it directly. You are the type of person who would take appeasement over fighting evil. You are the Chamberlain — peace at any cost. As long as the cost is not on your self-proclaimed comfortable lifestyle. I am quite sure you would have been among those opposing World War II. There were a lot of Frank Stetsons in those day — but fortunately, there were more of those we all the greatest generation — people who understood evil and sacrificed to defeat it. You should be thankful that there were a lot of people NOT like you that have enabled your to proselytize from your cozy intellectual womb. .

      • frank stetson

        Proselytize and intellectual in one sentence, my, why you’re on fire!

        IMO – and it is opinion, you are an Armchair General who has made the wrong calls on Ukraine’s future time and again. You call me a Chamberlin, a man who favored appeasement against Hitler. Hitler was a man bent on destroying and ruling the world and installing ethnic cleansing. You feel what Biden and the coalition are doing will ultimately let Putin win, and somehow this is tantamount to Hitler and the Third Reich as you tip your hat to Godwin’s law and call me hyperbolic. And you want to send our kids in to defend against this, the fact that your relations go too notwithstanding (and thank them for their service but that does not strengthen your argument one iota). I do not agree and I favor letting Biden and the coalition do what they are doing. They are not appeasing Putin, they are fighting back. Quite well so far indeed.

        I am not Chamberlin. Putin is not Hitler and Russia is not the Third Reich. Ukraine is not Poland, France, whatever —- the Russian blitzkrieg failed and the War is on and against impossible odds, with our help, the Ukrainians are holding on.

        You said we were doing little, especially against the drones. I showed facts that paint a different story for both sanctions and weapons where the coalition and Biden have taken direct actions. You were wrong. You said I have no concern for the innocents, my actions say different, that was just your stupid, knee-jerk reaction. You are wrong and doubly stupid to guess. You say I have no skin in the game, you are full of shit on that one too. I have family, friends, and neighbors with lives on the line. I am 50% Slovakian, I have relatives living on the border. I have family in almost every War; I grew up in the shadow of what WWII can do to the best of men suffering the worst of fates, yet surviving, before PTSD was four words, let alone an acronym. My FIL lived behind enemy lines trying to protect mother and five sisters — you want to hear about what it’s like? Four years living in German occupied lands and yeah, I heard it all, could see the scars, and see hate Germans to this day — it’s in my DNA. I did not server, I protested, and I stood along many who served as family and friends. Most respected my position against Vietnam, seems to be that we were right to suggest unwinnable war waged for the wrong reasons in the wrong way.

        As an aside, I find it funny to see your Putin panties all in a bunch when Team Trump has hundreds of meetings with team Putin before the freaking 2016 election even takes place and that’s just hunky dory with you — no smoke, nothing to see there…… ironic, ain’t it? Hundreds of meetings before being elected with your arch enemy, the axis of evil, by Trump’s people with no skills or experience dealing with that crap and it does not even raise you eyebrow. A little? Spies against guys?
        No issues? Ironic, ain’t it. Maybe they were pulling a Chamberlin. They sure weren’t laying down the law……..

        Your current battle cry is about Iranian drones, adding one more country to you growing “evil axis.” You already added China, and I think North Korea (could be wrong, Joe does not have a search engine on his site, too cheap). I showed you how Biden and the coalition is helping Ukraine with this new threat. You responded not to that information; it apparently does not matter to your cause.

        I am not willing to let Putin win this war; Biden and the coalition are not willing to let Putin win this war. I listed all the new weapons we are sending to aid Ukraine in not letting Putin wine this war.

        You clearly want war with Putin and now Iran. I think it’s a frequent tone for you. I said not yet, not at this time, do not send our children to fight for Ukraine for Larry’s, YOUR, vanity. I do not advocate war because you want it, because you feel the level of evil calls for it. The tragedy is terrible, the suffering is terrible, yet war with Russia over Ukraine is not the limited tactical experience you imagine, the nuclear threat is real, IMO, and it is far more deadly than your imaginings.

        I do agree with ratcheting up Ukrainian defense, I even support adding Ukraine to NATO ASAP which is tantamount to a declaration of war. But that’s a War with NATO, and that’s a different beast than what I think you are calling for (although it’s hard to tell from your weasel words what actual, physical, steps you are calling for). That war would not be for Ukraine but to render Russia useless, destroyed, and in total defeat killing millions. But the Armchair Generals seem to miss that just like you missed all those anti-drone and long range defensive measures being put into place as we type.

        For now, I support Biden and the coalition, they seemed to have allowed Ukraine to survive so far, win a few even. If they can make the winter weather……

        • larry Horist

          Frank Stetson. Of course, Putin is not Hitler … but he is also not Gandhi. He is as close to Hitler as any head-of-state since Hitler. He is a clear and present danger to world peace and a war criminal, to boot. He is murdering men, women and children by the thousands. That matters to me — as do all the security and US leadership interests that he threatens.

          Your constant use your invented Larry Horist to lie about the real Larry Horist is getting tiresome.. I do not want war — or an unjust war to continue. And I do not want the use of nuclear weapons, as you falsely claim.. I just will not allow Putin to win by scaring us into submission. He even threatens the US east coast with annihilation in propaganda films. Threatens the use of nuclear weapons. He hopes that there are enough people like you in the US and the west to melt down in the face of threats.

          I find it interesting that you seem to embrace some aspects of Trump’s isolationism. You must have approved of his initial agreement to leave Afghanistan — and leaving the Kurds unsupported in Syria. And I bet you loved Obama for encouraging the opposition fighters against Bashar al Asaad, and then walking out on them. Do you have anything in the playbook worth fighting for?

    • Sam

      Actually I didn’t lose. I’m just not going to comply with anything that the idiots in the democrat party hands out. We have a network of sovereign citizens and we ain’t going to attack the capitol. Just don’t tread on us. We bite Re the scotus we have to depend on them to keep America from communism

  4. frank stetson

    What’s worse, illegal alien or illegal American?

    Deport them all ! Legal or leave it!

    • Sam

      Get a rope

    • larry Horist

      Framk Stetson. …. You comment makes no sense whatsoever. I know what an illegal alien is, but what is an illegal American? Deport them all! who is saying that?

  5. frank stetson

    An illegal American, in this case, is someone who “just not going to comply with anything that the idiots in the democrat party hands out.” And I said to deport all illegals. Didn’t you just read that?

  6. Tom

    Wow! Larry and Frank are really going at it in this one. As an Independent, I can sort of see both sides. I think Larry is basically saying we are hamstringing Ukraine from being able to wage a total war and win and get it over with. Ironically Frank points out Vietnam. Having served in that era, our troops were hamstrung in much the same way. We were fighting for a zero sum gain, no victory, just keeping the commies held back. History has recorded us as the losers of that war – so so much for containment strategies. So Larry has a good point, if we are going to be in it, then lets be in it to win. But Frank also has a good point about not rushing in full force too soon. Frank is right, Ukraine has had victories, and is for now holding their own, but Larry sees this more tacit approach as allowing Putin to continue wreaking havoc on the Ukraine population and many more will die.

    The fact is, I am not sure that the USA is running this war and so I do not believe we alone can achieve Larry’s desired outcome. NATO being 29 member nations is actually running the war and is calling the shots. And right now, they prefer a “war of containment”, which is more in line with Frank’s goal of “limited war” with an eye to watching how it all evolves, and then provide progressive support as needed. Either Larry or Frank could be correct – but unfortunately for Ukraine, providing the conditions to prove either Larry or Frank correct will both involve many people dying – I think we can agree on this. The question is how many will die? Should we have listened to Larry, or to Frank?

    One thing is for sure, NATO has already achieved one goal which is to significantly weaken Russia, and they have exposed the Russian military for what is is, a bit of a paper tiger. But the next goal will be harder. How do we get Putin tired of waging war to the point where he just quits? If we examine the Vietnam War, the Communists turned the tide of the war by allowing it to be a war of containment and being content with sending home as many American body bags as they could under such a strategy. A war of attrition, and it worked. Americans got tired of the body bags and turned against the war, which caused political unrest that led to finding a way out – the Communists were successful in figuring out a way to just make the USA want to quit. Perhaps the same strategy might work for NATO as well?

    We can always ratchet up a war – but it is much harder to ratchet one down. So right now, I think NATO’s strategy of limited war in Ukraine and containment is the better way to go. It will maintain the body bag count while not getting the ire of the Russian people if they feel that they are being directly attacked by Ukraine. They will eventually turn that ire against Putin but this will take a little while longer. I do think we should be providing whatever weapons they need to kick the Russians out of Ukraine, and I think we should get those jets to Ukraine and provide what ever systems are needed to create an aerial dome that thwarts Russian missile attacks – all the while pushing the Russians on the ground and not giving them any rest and rebuild time. And we should help Ukraine figure out a way to use the winter season to their advantage to send as many body bags back to Russia as possible.

    So in a way, a blended Larry-Frank strategy that loosens the hamstrung while still containing the war does seem like a good next step. This is quite a bit different that what Neville Chamberlain sought, and definitely different that Vietnam since we will be helping Ukraine to win a war of attrition or containment. So I am scoring this debate 5 to 5. Now, let me end with the words of a song: “Common on Larry and Frank, smile on your brother, everybody get together and try to love one another right now!”

    • larry Horist

      Tom … You will recall that the Vietnam war the result of Truman’s blunder. When he first announced his Communist
      “containment policy,” he drew the line offshore Southeast Asia — signaling that we had no vested interest in that region. That is when China started to impose influence and promote civil uprisings. Ergo the Vietnam civil war.. France initially entered — representing western interests. The was a goal, and that was to keep the Southeast Asia nations from being taken over by a pro-Chinese Communist government. It is no small irony that Vietnam was taken over by a Communist regime that has evolved closer to the United States than China. Vietnam is among nations in the region that is worried about China ambitions.

  7. frank stetson

    I do not think “seeing both sides” is necessarily a trait of being an Independent voter. Sorry.

    All of your points, plus more, are why I protested Vietnam. I had an advantage of being younger and having a different perspective because of time. I knew HCM worshipped our Constitution and democracy and we thought him a tiny-yellow-man of no consequence. I knew kids my age who immigrated from the North and they lived with this shit from the day they were born — we would have a tough time beating that, and I knew we were propping up one puppet after another just like Central America and Iran, and that it does not work. Therefore for all the things you mentioned, especially being hamstrung and not being all-in, we would not win that way.

    Also, I have no problem with Ukraine attacked military targets in Russia and if they miss, well, shit happens, it’s War and they did not start it. I have no problem with us or anyone giving Ukraine planes. Pretty sure I said that before, but no search engine, so me no can find easily. But I don’t. I am hopeful the Patriots, plus the nasm’s will end the Russian ownership of the sky, and if pieces rain into Russia, well, again, it’s War, sorry citizens of Russia.

    Ukraine and Russia and NATO is not Vietnam, Russian and us. It’s different and we are containing no one; we are defending Ukraine but not overtly attacking Russia……yet…..except a little,…..for military targets only so far.

    But let’s racket it up by moving Ukraine forward in their quest to be part of NATO. This is a NATO endeavor, on behalf of Ukraine, in which we are the 800lb gorilla. If this bastard wants to take us on, let’s do it through NATO. One bomb falls after we allow them into NATO and our path is clear, by agreement, by all of NATO. So far Putin has taken on a hamstrung Ukraine who has arms support from NATO. Let’s do it right and see if he wants to take on all of NATO. And then we can see where Iran, China, and North Korea really stand —– my guess is they wait to pick up the pieces of whatever is left, if anything.

    And the subs submerge for one last time, sigh. But it will be glorious, Larry will love it.

    Until then, stay the course and quit acting like we are losing. We have not, yet. Anything but.

    • Tom

      Oh Frank, lets be clear. I do not think NATO/US efforts are losing at all. I think the tide is turning more every day in a NATO kind of way! (being poetic) And we will have to disagree on the issue of the Ukraine war being a limited war or war of containment. Clearly there are boundaries which neither Russia or Ukraine wish to cross at this time. So by definition alone, it is a war of containment. Who knows if that will continue, got a crystal ball? And I am definitely for admitting Ukraine to NATO and then restructuring the effort – nothing would be a bigger burr in Putin’s ass. I do not fear Iran or DPRK, both are unreliable allies – so let Russia have them. China will stay out and probably will give DPRK some advice about not getting in too deep. And you are right about HCM. When he read his country’s letter of independence over loudspeakers that were all ovrer North Vietnam, basically he took our Declaration of Independence and substituted Vietnam for United States of America. We turned down HCM four times when he wanted USA help to structure his country the same way. HCM was a nationalist first, communist second. And actually, I think you and LArry are much closer on Ukraine support that you think, you both seem to agree on attacking Russian targets and blowing shit up! My view is this is fine as long as they are military targets because right now Ukraine has the moral high ground that I do not want to see them lose. BTW, as an independent, I am not on either side of this debate between you and Larry. I think you both have good points. But I also do see political leanings in both of your comments. I think it is fine that we have different views of what it means to be independent. Just do not label me a libertarian. 🙂

      • larry Horist

        Frank Stetson ,,, Your insecurity is bleeding out. “Attila!” — and you even have a t-shirt. LOL Hey! Maybe you should make trading cards with you in that t-shirt. You are not against this fight — as long as you do not have personally sacrifice. I will stick with Chamberlain — an armchair Chamberlain. Did you support the first gulf war … or the later war to topple Hussein? I am asking only to see if maybe you are just a dedicated pacifist.

        • Frank stetson

          Mr. Whorist, do you have anything on topic to say?

          just because you are a hawk does not make me a pacifist, not that there’s anything wrong with that.

          You go ahead and keep calling for nuclear war with Russia over Ukraine. You have free speech, even if it’s stupid.

          • larry Horist

            Frank Stetson … you are again a liar when you say I have called for nuclear war. Must be the Larry Horist in your head. I have said we should ignore Putin’s bluff because I do not believe it will lead to anything close to a full-blown nuclear World War III — as your narrative hyperbolically suggests.

        • Joseph S. Bruder

          Trump has already issued trading cards… I bet you already have the whole collection!

          • frank stetson

            Are they the 99-cent photoshopped Trumpian hero cards he announced as his HUGE campaign breakout announcement to pull him ahead of DeSanctmonious?

            Remember, these guys are getting antsy; criminal referrals on Monday has spiked their hormones :>)

            Jack Smith is up next, the subpoenas are already flying,

          • larry Horist

            Joseph S Bruder … Is that the extent of your meaningless and childish insult? Really? You appear to have been sent down to the farm team of intellectual discourse. I could say “so is your old man” but he is also Gilbertson’s old man. I shall have to settle for not inviting you to my next birthday party.

  8. frank stetson

    Oh yeah, I vote you a 3 for having a rating system to begin with :>)

    • Tom

      LOL be as mean as you like! I can handle it! My rating system is neither a liberal democracy nor a staunch republic. It is a dictatorship! And its about the only thing I rule in these discussions! LOL 🙂

  9. frank stetson

    Handle it? My, I do love a challenge….I once had Sheriff Joe Arpio’s folks so pissed they taunted a pink suit in my size….. I once had a Senior Manager go scanners on me in a meeting….a company President toss a conference room chair at me…..might want to be careful what you ask for…. heh, heh.

    Yeah, Larry likes to paint me as Chamberlain, and like I said, that’s a first. Tact and demur are not great adjectives for me. My team name was “Attila,” I have the t-shirt….. :>) I am not against this fight, I am against going to war with our kids with Russia, AT THIS TIME.

    Now, let Ukraine take back Crimea. That will put the starch in Putin’s already soiled shorts. Probably make Larry feel bad too and that’s got to be really an odd similarity………

    But please, don’t look for similarities between Larry and I. Not as long as his mantra is “Trump the man -no. Trump the policy-yes. Trump the vote – sure, why not…… I mean what could go wrong with that cracked addled thinking. He has stepped over the line and is too Trumpish to be a true Republican to me. Not that we will ever see one again, at least in power. Goodbye George Will, George Bush (SR), and farewell for ever, Ron Reagan, father of the modern Republican party who’s son is not gay, and neither is Baryshnikov, and who is not afraid to burn in Hell.

    • Tom

      LOL Oh I think you and Larry have some common ground. As far as burning in hell, well, I like a BBQ as much as the next guy as long as I am not on the spit! 🙂 Yeah I do not think sending our children to Russia is a great idea.

    • larry Horist

      Frank Stetson … check above. My response went to Tom.

  10. Frank stetson

    I like bbq. My Arkansonian relation of the 1930’s opened a bbq outside of Dallas after Ww1 and the homesteading failed. An avid fisherman, he forgot to ditch the waders heading onto the lake, tipped over and thus ended the bbq.

    Part of that farm is mine, they never paid my grandmother back. Lots of soldiers in that family branch. One guy married a Jersey Chiquita girl at the Panama canal. I had another from my wife’s branch die on a sub there at the end of wwii. Yeah, he took another guy’s watch, was below, sub got rammed by another of our ships and down he went. Timing. Speaking of which, in the civil war, a relative chased Jeb Stewart at Gettysburg. Yeah, that Jeb, but not that G/burg, earlier. Good thing they missed him; they were newly trained and would have died. But many battles, medals, advancements later, a bad gut sent him home and his group lost 50% in the next battle. Timing. But yeah, I have a family full of cheerful warriors, most not for the money, but for the cause. Even a few lifers and one guy, closer relative,flew the Berlin airlift. Another sailed from San Diego on a partially repaired ship on 12/7, that day. Timing.